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Post by luckyjack on Apr 11, 2015 17:23:20 GMT -6
Please forgive if this subject has been addressed in a previous post. I'm currently between computers and using a phone to access your site, so due to tiny keyboard, and d eyes, there may be misspellings and missed cues on my part.
Pinecone's comment regarding shooting at clay birds has awakened a question for me.
I have a family firearm, a Browning 12ga, purchased new in 1950, by my late grandfather. Semi-auto type, vented rib, etc. I would love to begin using this again primarily to have fun with cousins who enjoy shooting at clay birds in a casual manner on their farm. however, I understand that ammo has changed away from the lead shot; to steel or a composite (?). Will firing the new product damage the original barrel? At this point the barrel is minty, with very slight field wear, as we always handled our firearms with respect and care. I have several cases of the old lead product stored away, so it might be that I only bring it out on special occasions?
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Post by piney on Apr 11, 2015 17:32:42 GMT -6
I have purchased about a pallet worth of regular 12ga. lead over the past couple of years, it's running $5.99 for 25 shells around here. It's the only ammo that hasn't disappeared from the shelves in Minnesota. Steel shot or Hevi-Shot is mostly for duck or grouse hunting in lead-restricted areas of MN, if there are no restrictions in your area, you should be able to find lead shot.
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Post by luckyjack on Apr 11, 2015 18:28:45 GMT -6
Any idea what an Estate Load might be?
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Post by piney on Apr 11, 2015 18:33:58 GMT -6
I believe Estate is lead. My range doesn't allow steel shot for clays at all (and it's so much more expensive than lead) so I've only used steel shot for hunting grouse. I still have that box, the grouse were all hiding that day.
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Post by luckyjack on Apr 11, 2015 18:39:45 GMT -6
Oh, my grandmum could roast a grouse so tasty you would weep!
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Post by piney on Apr 11, 2015 18:41:39 GMT -6
Same here! My grandmother was from Canada, she made wild game something special (especially wild blueberries, in pies!)
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Post by armedandsafe on Apr 11, 2015 20:55:04 GMT -6
The change to steel and such is Federally mandated for some areas and some game. Some States have picked up on that and copied the rules for certain areas. The lead shot is still available almost everywhere.
Older barrels will not like steel shot, if used very heavily. Running a box or two each season will not dramatically wear the barrel, but using it for heavy shooting, such as clays, will wear the barrel rapidly.
You late 1940s Browning MIGHT have a short chamber. Some of the older ones (of all makes) had ejection ports for the crimped over-wad paper shells. Those shells are shorter after firing than the plastic ones with the star fold closing the end of the shell. I have two shotguns which will not eject the star fold shells, although they fire them just fine. I switched to brass hulls because I got tired of trimming the used hull for reloading, and, then, having to glue the wad in the mouth of the hull.
Pops
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Post by luckyjack on Apr 11, 2015 21:33:41 GMT -6
Thanks, armedandsafe. Several items there to consider.
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Post by Alpo on Apr 12, 2015 14:54:45 GMT -6
Short shells - a primer. Shotgun shells are measured in the "fired, completely open" position. So a 2 3/4" shell measures 2 3/4" AFTER it has been fired. Remember, though, that shells have a folded crimp, which means that for a 12 gauge (approximately 3/4" in diameter) the last 3/8" of the shell is folded over, to make the crimp. So while a FIRED 2 3/4" shell is 2 3/4" long, an UNFIRED one is only 2 3/8" long, and drops neatly and cleanly into a 2 1/2" chamber. A 2 3/4" chamber is approximately 0.800" for the entire 2 3/4" length. I just measured a 12 gauge shotshell, and it read 0.794" OD, and there must be enough room for it to go in and out, which is how I came up with my 0.800" chamber dimension. It is that diameter for the entire length of the chamber, so that when the shell is fired, the crimp can open up completely, leaving a 0.730 (the diameter of 12 gauge) opening for the shot to go out through. Now, that same 2 3/4" shell will, as previously mentioned, drop neatly into a 2 1/2" chamber, but when fired, since the chamber is NOT 2 3/4" long, the crimp cannot open up completely. This leaves you shoving that 0.730 shotload through a, maybe, 0.625 (or smaller) hole. This increases pressures greatly, which is hard on the gun, and increases recoil, also greatly, which is hard on the shooter.
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Post by armedandsafe on Apr 12, 2015 16:52:38 GMT -6
That is interesting. I thought the same thing on fired round length. However, my 1926 Model 12 and my Browning humpback will not eject star crimped shells reliably, but will always eject roll crimped ones. The mouth of the star crimped shell hangs on the ejection port.
Pops
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Post by luckyjack on Apr 12, 2015 17:23:22 GMT -6
Mr Alpo, with your permission, I would like to print your very detailed primer on shot-shells for further reference. Thank you!
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Post by jwrauch on Apr 12, 2015 18:52:04 GMT -6
I have an early Browning 16 ga A5(pre sweet 16) which is chambered for 2-9/16 rolled crimp cardboard shells. Dad gave it to me and I have several boxes of Peters shells for it yet, but it doesn't see any use anymore. I took innumerable quail and bunnies with it back in the 60's and 70's. JR
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Post by Alpo on Apr 12, 2015 19:06:40 GMT -6
Luckyjack, go right ahead. Pops, while the 3/4" wide 12 gauge has an additional 3/8" of crimp sticking out when there is a folded crimp, a rolled crimp is only 1/8" longer. The overshot card is set about a quarter-inch below the mouth of the case, and then the mouth is rolled over, under pressure, and when it hits the card, the card is now 1/8" below the roll. www.ballisticproducts.com/-Roll-Crimping-Tools-/products/128/
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Post by armedandsafe on Apr 12, 2015 21:53:01 GMT -6
I understand that, Alpo, having been reloading 16Ga for about 30 years. I just don't understand why my two pumps won't reliably eject star crimped hulls while they will roll crimped hulls. I suspect if I were interested enough I could start taking measurements while firing a large number of star crimped. I solved the problem, FOR ME, by switching to brass hulls. Lazy? ME? Naaaaaaaaah Pops
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Post by Alpo on Apr 12, 2015 22:26:52 GMT -6
Maybe your 16s are 2 9/16, so they shoot the 2 3/4 you're feeding it, but the 2 3/4 folded-crimp is a little long for the hole, but your 2 3/4 roll-crimps are, in the fired condition, are maybe only 2 5/8 long. Maybe?
I'm just impressed that you are rolling a crimp into the brass shells, and the end of the shell is not being blown off. I've only done that with 410s, and the three I tried it with are now all 1/8" shorter than they were.
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