pawn
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Post by pawn on Dec 22, 2014 23:02:44 GMT -6
AH swung for the fences in initiating operation Barbarosa. Had he not attacked Russia and kept his loose alliance, could Germany have won the war?
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Post by Pistolenschutzen on Dec 25, 2014 23:00:24 GMT -6
AH swung for the fences in initiating operation Barbarosa. Had he not attacked Russia and kept his loose alliance, could Germany have won the war? Ultimately, no, I don't think he could have, though defeating him would likely have taken much longer than it did. Hitler's only chance of "winning" the war was to have quit while he was ahead, i.e., after his successful occupation of Czechoslovakia, but before his invasion of Poland in September, 1939, which brought an actual declaration of a shooting war from Britain and France. It's now known that Stalin was planning an eventual attack on Germany himself at a later time. Hitler just beat him to the punch, thus he would have eventually ended up with a war against the Soviet Union anyway. I do not the think the U.S. could have stayed out of the war in Europe for long after the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese considering the Tripartite Pact. Hitler's declaration of war against the U.S. simply played right into the hands of the Allies, particularly that of Churchill and the British. Once the US entered the war, the eventual outcome was certain to go against Germany based on population and industrial capacity alone.
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pawn
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Post by pawn on Dec 26, 2014 0:20:52 GMT -6
Thanks for your reply Pistol. I was recently in Germany...Berlin during the 25th anniversary of the wall coming down. Quite an occasion and celebration. Part of business trip spent mostly in what used to be East Germany. As glorious a celebration as it was, as I passed through Checkpoint Charlie I could not help but think that all of the suffering from 1961 to 1989 was self inflicted. The country was halved as a consequence of their own transgressions against humanity. Such a beautiful city filled with vibrant, productive people. My take away lesson was what happened there could happen anywhere. Unsettling to think of such things to be honest.
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Post by armedandsafe on Dec 26, 2014 14:51:09 GMT -6
I had many of the same thoughts when I was in Europe in 59-61. They were still rebuilding in many of the places I visited. I still can bring to mind burial vaults from WWI around Verdun and comparing them to the vast fields of individual burials from WWII.
I would often go from Etain up to Bastogne for an evening or weekend. The damage there was still evident, although much had been rebuilt or regrown.
Pops
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2014 18:44:45 GMT -6
Visiting old battlefields or places of conflict can be enhanced considerably by some knowledge of what went on. I am sure many go to the places Pops and Pawn went to, with little knowledge or any thought of the history. Almost a year ago I was taken to the battlefield of Waterloo by a good friend, a Colonel in the Canadian army. The battlefield is clearly marked with a memorial but some knowledge of what exactly happened where really made the visit extra special..
I have spent forty years visiting friends in France, and may of the town names I pass are well known to students of WW1. I would often gaze across the fields as I passed imagining the thousands of men, horses, lorries, artillery pieces and of course, ambulances that would have been there between 1914 and 1918. That was surely a monstrous war, where so many went to their deaths so quickly and so fruitlessly.
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pawn
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Post by pawn on Dec 27, 2014 19:42:44 GMT -6
Excellent post Tranter. It is difficult for me to imagine the magnitude and scope of either world wars. We can study them and hopefully learn from them. In my mind, war, regardless of the actors or purpose serves to teach society, in the sense of the gestalt of human beings, to work to avoid future wars. We learn slowly.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2014 9:57:04 GMT -6
Thanks pawn. War is of course a huge subject with almost countless facets. WW1 was supposed to be the war to end all wars. Well that diddnt work out. The many wars since have however seem to shrunk in size and scope. WW2 obviously being the largest, but so many others from Vietnam to Afghanistan, from Iraq to the Falklands, from the Arab Israeli wars to the countries of eastern europe and to Africa. Funny thing is I see no reason why we can ever assume there will be no more. Actually if patterns or trends are to be used to project, we sadly have many to come.
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Post by Pistolenschutzen on Dec 28, 2014 12:22:46 GMT -6
Thanks pawn. War is of course a huge subject with almost countless facets. WW1 was supposed to be the war to end all wars. Well that diddnt work out. The many wars since have however seem to shrunk in size and scope. WW2 obviously being the largest, but so many others from Vietnam to Afghanistan, from Iraq to the Falklands, from the Arab Israeli wars to the countries of eastern europe and to Africa. Funny thing is I see no reason why we can ever assume there will be no more. Actually if patterns or trends are to be used to project, we sadly have many to come. Unfortunately, I think you are right, Tranter. I'm often reminded of those famous verses from the Bible, Mark 13:7 ("And when you hear of wars and rumors of war, do not be alarmed; this must take place, but the end is not yet.") and again in Matthew 24:6 ("And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet."). If history is any guide, and I believe it is, the history of the human race is written in blood and the carnage of countless battlefields.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2014 13:52:17 GMT -6
Well said Pistol, and good references. In fact one wanders is conflict is more natural to the human race than peace. We seem to prefer peace, but its almost inevitable at some point the opportunity to make war will appear. Be it for resources, financial or idealogical reasons, we will often make that choice.
In fact, some would say we are close to a major conflict right now, though I would disagree.
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Post by armedandsafe on Dec 28, 2014 17:30:18 GMT -6
Humans desire peace, but are willing to send others to war to obtain that.
That statement is NOT meant to denigrate those who volunteer to serve in a military (or other like manner) to defend home.
Pops
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